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Post by Michael on Nov 24, 2007 13:07:50 GMT -5
Scientific Proof That God Exists ..from John Grigg
Nothing can only create nothing. Before the universe began, something must always have existed. Its energy, energy is eternal the 1st law of thermodynamics confirms that. The law states: ‘’ energy cannot be created or destroyed’’ no beginning or uncreated thing and no end. That’s the definition of ‘’eternal’’. you also can’t claim that this energy always existed in the known universe because science has proven that the universe did not always exists and it had no energy in it. The energy source that was present before the universe had to have power beyond anything we can begin to imagine, considering it had to transfer it’s energy into the trillions of stars and billions of galaxies. A separate eternal energy source that exists outside of the universe had to have supplied or transferred the energy onto the universe, (because we know the universe did not always exist). It’s not unreasonable to assume this enormous energy is the creator - god. We reasonably have to options to determine what was this powerful existing energy. It could be a dumb unconscious and vague energy source, (however, this seems extremely illogical considering that we can observe complexity, order, and design throughout the universe). The most logical explanation would be that an intelligent mind constructed the universe.
Atheists may say " Well, all of the energy in the universe could have derived itself from multiple energy sources, not just a single one".That maybe true, but it still poses a serious problem. Multiple or single unintelligent energy source(s) would most likely result in chaos and disorder.
(cont) Because they can't regulate their outflow of energy thus, dispersing uncontrolled and violent emissions of energy without organization or order unlike an intelligent energy source (god).
Every example of dumb energy source(s) that we can observe are volatile and destructive by nature and will never create organization . Examples : the sun, tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes. Sure tornadoes or hurricanes may appear organized but, they will never create organization.
You can still hope that all of the energy in the universe originated from an unconscious, dumb, energy source or multiple ones, but it defies common sense and reasoning. We can clearly observe complexity, design, and order throughout the universe. The possibility of a single all powerful, intelligent, energy source (God) still remains ( This is more logical).
Atheists may also say " Well, based on the 2nd law of thermodynamics God may eventually disorganize and deteriorate overtime if he is composed of energy". God is composed of energy but not entirely energy. The God I serve is composed of infinite intelligence as well.
(cont.) He can certainly be intelligent enough to break the boundaries of the 2nd law and find a way to harness his energy infinitely and never result in disorder. If you can't agree with this explanation, you're putting limits on God, which is simply idiotic.
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Post by davidinczech001 on Nov 28, 2007 16:57:07 GMT -5
God created the universe and set up the laws, natural and moral, so how can we say He is subject to the natural laws? He came as a man in Yeshua so He willingly submitted to those laws as a part of the creation, but otherwise He is not limited to the laws of creation. He is eternal and infinite and Almighty God. All-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful, wonderful God.
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Post by johngrigg on Dec 15, 2007 12:42:46 GMT -5
I never said he was subject to the natural laws, but it's what atheists want, otherwise it's just to hard for them to believe, yes it does say somewhere in the bible that god is omnipotent, I am not sure where though.
God bless,
John.
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Post by Michael on Dec 20, 2007 9:36:09 GMT -5
God, Omnipotent See:-
Job 42: 2 I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted.
Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Luke 1:37 For nothing is impossible with God.
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Post by andrew on Jan 4, 2008 11:02:43 GMT -5
Mathew 19:26 is awsesome and states that our own being is impossible but with god all is possible ... thankyou god for being a great almighty king of kings , lord of lords and for keeping us safe amen
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Post by stevepugh on Jan 5, 2008 5:12:04 GMT -5
The First law of thermodynamics is correct, yet it fails to notice one important point.
There was a time in eternity in which only God existed.
Creation is not eternal it is fixed in eternity.
Now that creation exists it is true that matter and energy is constant (as far as we can tell)
So when the first law says that matter or energy cannot be created it is false.
It can be created and it was created by God.
Actually the first law states the eternity of creation and this is Heresy. creation is not eternal because if it were then creation would be God.
Gen 1v1 Blasts this theory out of the water.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The First law is the first principle of the religion of evolution.
Steve
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Post by johngrigg on Jan 5, 2008 7:22:30 GMT -5
'The First law of thermodynamics is correct, yet it fails to notice one important point.
There was a time in eternity in which only God existed.
Creation is not eternal it is fixed in eternity.
Now that creation exists it is true that matter and energy is constant (as far as we can tell)
So when the first law says that matter or energy cannot be created it is false.
So actually I have agreed with everything you have said
It can be created and it was created by God.'
'Before the universe began, something must always have existed.'
you said 'there was a time in eternity when only god existed'
Look above, I already agreed with that point. I also was implying that from god, creation can be eternal.
You also said 'So when the first law says that matter or energy cannot be created it is false.
It can be created and it was created by God.' I agreed with that point as well 'this enormous energy is the creator - god.'
'Actually the first law states the eternity of creation and this is Heresy. creation is not eternal because if it were then creation would be God.
Gen 1v1 Blasts this theory out of the water.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The First law is the first principle of the religion of evolution.
Steve' I have already gave my reasons why I agree with all of your theory, although to back up the point that god was the oringinal creator I should have added Gen 1v1, although it might be unnecessary since I would think people would already get the point,
God bless,
John.
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Post by stevepugh on Jan 6, 2008 12:41:41 GMT -5
hi John,
Quote - 'This enormous energy is the creator'.
This statement is wrong.
God is not creation. The enormous energy of Creation was created by God but it is not actually God. God and creation are totally separate.
Steve
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Post by Michael on Jan 7, 2008 5:39:23 GMT -5
In case someone reading this thread doesn't know what the first law of thermodynamics is! It can be stated mathematically as: dU=äQ-äW where dU is a small increase in the internal energy of the system, äQ is a small amount of heat added to the system, and äW is a small amount of work done by the system. As an analogy, if heat were money, then we could say that any change in our savings (dU) is equal to the money we put in (äQ) minus the money we spend (äw). More at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics |
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Post by johngrigg on Jan 7, 2008 17:12:31 GMT -5
Thanks steve, your point is kind of what I meant, thanks for defining it more clearly; but I put it that way so people could understand my other points easier.
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Post by Michael on Feb 21, 2008 6:11:58 GMT -5
Timeline for creationAs outlined by Bishop James Ussher in The Annals of the World Oct. 23, 4004 BCE: The universe is created Oct. 28, 4004 BCE: Adam is created (dies 930 years later) 2349 or 2348 BCE: Noah's flood. 1921 BCE: God calls on Abraham to kill his son 1491 BCE: Moses leads the Jews from Egypt 1012 BCE: Founding of the Temple in Jerusalem 975 BCE: End of King Solomon's reign 586 BCE: Jerusalem destroyed by Babylon 5 BCE: Jesus Christ is born Therefore in Oct 2007 creationists marked New Year's Day, 6011. For that, you can thank James Ussher – and science closely aligned to biblical belief. www.thestar.com/living/Religion/article/270945
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Post by andrew on Mar 17, 2008 13:15:32 GMT -5
The Present and Future Kingdom of God
"Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." John the Baptist and Jesus proclaimed the nearness of God’s kingdom (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Mark 1:15). A literal translation is "has come near." The long-awaited rule of God was near. This message was called the gospel, the good news. Thousands were eager to hear and respond to this message of John and Jesus.
But consider for a moment what the response would have been like if they had preached, "The kingdom of God is 2,000 years away." The message would have been disappointing, and public response would also have been disappointing. Jesus may not have been popular, Jewish religious leaders might not have been jealous, and Jesus might not have been crucified. "The kingdom of God is far away" would have been neither news nor good.
John and Jesus preached a soon-coming kingdom, something that was near in time to their audiences. The message said something about what people should do now; it had immediate relevance and urgency. It aroused interest—and jealousy. By proclaiming that changes were needed in government and in religious teachings, the message challenged the status quo.
First-century Jewish expectations
Many first-century Jews knew the phrase "kingdom of God." They eagerly wanted God to send them a leader who would throw off Roman rule and make Judea an independent nation again—a nation of righteousness, glory and blessings, a nation everyone would be attracted to.
Into this climate—eager but vague expectations of God-ordained intervention—John and Jesus preached the nearness of God’s kingdom. "The kingdom of God has come near you," Jesus told his disciples to say after they healed the sick (Matthew 10:7; cf. Luke 10:9, 11).
But the hoped-for kingdom did not happen. The Jewish nation was not restored. Even worse, the temple was destroyed and the Jews were scattered. The Jewish hopes are still unfulfilled. Was Jesus wrong in his prediction, or was he not predicting a national kingdom?
Jesus’ kingdom was not like the popular expectation—as we might guess from the fact that many Jews wanted him dead. His kingdom was not of this world (John 18:36). When he talked about the "kingdom of God," he used a phrase the people knew well, but he gave it new meaning. He told Nicodemus that God’s kingdom was invisible to most people (John 3:3)—to understand it or experience it, a person must be renewed by God’s Spirit (verse 6). The kingdom of God was a spiritual kingdom, not a physical organization.
Present condition of the kingdom
In the Olivet prophecy, Jesus announced that the kingdom would come after certain signs and apocalyptic events. But some of Jesus’ teachings and parables explain that the kingdom does not come in a dramatic way. The seed grows quietly (Mark 4:26-29); the kingdom starts as small as a mustard seed (verses 30-32) and is hidden like yeast (Matthew 13:33). These parables suggest that the kingdom is a reality before it comes in a powerful and dramatic way. In addition to being a future reality, it has reality right now.
Let’s look at some verses that indicate the kingdom is already functioning. In Mark 1:15, John announced, "The time has come…. The kingdom of God is near." Both these verbs are in the past perfect tense, which indicates that something has happened and its results continue. The time had come not just for the announcement but also for the kingdom.
Jesus said, after casting out demons, "If I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you" (Matthew 12:28, Luke 11:20). The kingdom is here, he said, and the proof is in the exorcisms. This proof continues in the church today, because the church is doing even greater works than Jesus did (John 14:12). We can also say, "If we cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is working here." The kingdom of God, by the power of the Holy Spirit, is continuing to demonstrate its authoritative power over the kingdom of Satan.
Satan still exerts some influence, but he has been defeated and condemned (John 16:11). He has been partially restrained (Mark 3:27). Jesus overcame Satan’s world (John 16:33), and with God’s help we are overcoming it, too (1 John 5:4). But not everyone does. In this age, the kingdom contains both good and bad (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43, 47-50; 24:45-51; 25:1-12, 14-30). Satan is still influential; we still look forward to the glorious future of the kingdom.
The kingdom active in the teachings
"The kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing," Jesus said in Matthew 11:12. And forceful people are laying hold of it. These verbs are in the present tense—the kingdom existed in Jesus’ day. A parallel verse, Luke 16:16, also uses present-tense verbs: "everyone is forcing his way into it." We don’t need to decide who the forceful people are or why they use force—what is important here is that these verses talk about the kingdom as a present reality.
Luke 16:16 replaces the first part of the verse with "the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached." This variation suggests that the kingdom’s advance in this age is, for practical purposes, roughly equivalent to its proclamation. The kingdom is—it already exists—and it is advancing by being preached.
In Mark 10:15, Jesus indicates that the kingdom is something we must receive in some way, apparently in this life. How is the kingdom present? The details are not yet clear, but the verses we have looked at say it is present.
The kingdom is among us
Some Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom would come (Luke 17:20). You can’t see it, replied Jesus. But Jesus also said, "The kingdom of God is within [NIV footnote: among] you" (verse 21). Jesus was the King, and because he was teaching and performing miracles among them, the kingdom was among the Pharisees. Jesus Christ is in us today, too, and just as the kingdom was present in the ministry of Jesus, it is present in the ministry of his church. The King is among us; his spiritual power is in us, even though the kingdom is not yet operating in its full power.
We have already been brought into God’s kingdom (Colossians 1:13). We are already receiving a kingdom, and our proper response is reverence and awe (Hebrews 12:28). Christ "has made us [past tense] to be a kingdom" (Revelation 1:6). We are a holy nation (1 Peter 2:9)—already and currently a holy kingdom—but it does not yet appear what we shall be. God has rescued us from the dominion of sin and transferred us into his kingdom, under his ruling authority.
The kingdom of God is here, Jesus said. His audience did not need to wait for a conquering Messiah—God is already ruling, and we should be living his way now. We don’t yet possess a territory, but we do come under the reign of God.
The kingdom of God is yet future
Understanding that the kingdom already exists helps us give greater attention to serving others around us. But we do not forget that the completion of the kingdom is still future. If our only hope is in this age, we don’t have much hope (1 Corinthians 15:19). We do not harbor illusions about bringing the kingdom with human efforts. When we suffer setbacks and persecutions, when we see that most people reject the gospel, we gain strength from the knowledge that the fullness of the kingdom is in a future age.
No matter how much we try to live in a way that reflects God and his kingdom, we cannot transform this world into God’s kingdom. It must come through dramatic intervention. Apocalyptic events are needed to usher in the new age. Satan must be completely restrained.
Numerous verses tell us that the kingdom of God will be a glorious future reality. We know that Christ is a King, and we yearn for the day he will exercise his power in a great and dramatic way to stop human suffering. The book of Daniel predicts a kingdom of God that will rule the earth (Daniel 2:44, 7:13-14, 22); the New Testament Apocalypse describes its arrival (Revelation 11:15, 19:11-16).
We pray for the kingdom to come (Luke 11:2). The poor in spirit and the persecuted await their future "reward in heaven" (Matthew 5:3, 10, 12). People "enter the kingdom" on a future "day" of judgment (Matthew 7:21-23, Luke 13:22-30). Jesus gave one parable because some people thought the kingdom would become powerful right away (Luke 19:11).
In the Olivet prophecy, Jesus described dramatic events that would come before his return in power. Shortly before his crucifixion, Jesus looked forward to a kingdom in the future (Matthew 26:29).
Paul speaks several times of "inheriting the kingdom of God" as a future experience (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; 15:50; Galatians 5:21; cf. Ephesians 5:5), and otherwise indicates by his language that he thinks of it as realized only at the end of the age (1 Thessalonians 2:12; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; Colossians 4:11; cf. 2 Timothy 4:1, 18). When Paul wants to focus on the present manifestation of the kingdom, he tends either to introduce the term "justice" or "righteousness" along with "kingdom" (Romans 14:17) or in place of it (Romans 1:17; for the close association of the kingdom and the justice of God, see Matthew 6:33), or (alternatively) to connect the kingdom with Jesus Christ rather than God the Father (Colossians 1:13). (J. Ramsey Michaels, "The Kingdom of God and the Historical Jesus," chapter 8 of The Kingdom of God in 20th-Century Interpretation, edited by Wendell Willis [Hendrickson, 1987], page 112)
Many "kingdom" scriptures could apply equally to the present kingdom or to the future fulfillment. Lawbreakers will be called least in the kingdom (Matthew 5:19-20). We leave families for the sake of the kingdom (Luke 18:29). We enter the kingdom through tribulations (Acts 14:22). The important thing for this article is that some verses are clearly present tense, and some are clearly future tense.
After Jesus’ resurrection, the disciples asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6). How was Jesus to answer such a question? What the disciples meant by kingdom was not what Jesus had been teaching. The disciples were still thinking in terms of a nationalistic kingdom rather than a slowly growing nation of all ethnic groups. It would take them years to realize that Gentiles were welcome in the new kingdom. Christ’s kingdom was still not of this world, but it was to be active in this age. So Christ did not say yes or no—he simply told them there was work to do and power to do it (verses 7-8).
The kingdom of God in the past
Matthew 25:34 tells us that the kingdom has been in preparation since the foundation of the world. It has been in existence all along, albeit in different forms. God was a King to Adam and Eve; he gave them dominion or authority to rule; they were his vice-regents in the Garden of Eden. Although the word "kingdom" is not used, Adam and Eve were in a kingdom of God, under his rule and ownership.
When God promised Abraham that his descendants would become great nations and that kings would come from him (Genesis 17:5-6), he was promising a kingdom of God. But it started small, like yeast hidden in a batch of dough, and it took hundreds of years to be seen for what it was.
When God brought the Israelites out of Egypt and made a covenant with them, they became a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6), a kingdom that belonged to God and could be called a kingdom of God. The covenant he made with them was similar to treaties powerful kings made with smaller nations. He had saved them, and the Israelites responded—they agreed to be his people. God was their king (1 Samuel 12:12; 8:7). David and Solomon sat on the throne of God, ruling on his behalf (1 Chronicles 29:23). Israel was a kingdom of God.
But the people wouldn’t obey their King. God sent them away, but he promised to restore the nation with a new heart (Jeremiah 31:31-33), a prophecy that has been fulfilled in the church today, which participates in the new covenant. We who have been given the Holy Spirit are the royal priesthood and holy nation that ancient Israel was unable to be (1 Peter 2:9, Exodus 19:6). We are in the kingdom, but there are now weeds growing among the grain. At the end of the age, the Messiah will return in power and glory, and the kingdom of God will again be transformed in appearance. The postmillennial kingdom, in which everyone is perfect and spiritual, will be dramatically different from the millennial one.
Since the kingdom has historical continuity, it is proper to speak of it in past, present and future tenses. In its historical development, it has had and will continue to have major milestones as new phases are established. The kingdom was established at Mt. Sinai; it was established in Jesus’ ministry; it will be established at his return, after the judgment. In each phase, God’s people rejoice in what they have and look forward to more yet to come. As we now experience some limited aspects of the kingdom, we gain confidence that the future kingdom will also be a reality. The Holy Spirit is our guarantee of greater blessings (2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:14).
The kingdom and the gospel
When we hear the word kingdom, we are reminded of the kingdoms of this world. Kingdom in this world is associated with authority and power, but not harmony and love. Kingdom can describe the authority God has in his family, but it does not describe all the blessings God has in store for us. That’s why other metaphors are used, too, such as the family term children, which emphasizes God’s love and authority.
Each term is accurate, but incomplete. If any one term could describe salvation perfectly, the Bible would use that term consistently. But all are metaphors, each describing some aspect of salvation—but none of the terms describes the complete picture. When God commissioned the church to preach the gospel, he did not restrict us to using only the term "kingdom of God." The apostles translated Jesus’ sayings from Aramaic to Greek, and they translated them into other metaphors, especially metaphors that were more meaningful to a non-Jewish audience. Matthew, Mark and Luke use "the kingdom" often. John and the epistles also describe our future, but they prefer other metaphors to do it.
Salvation is a more general term. Paul said we have been saved (Ephesians 2:8), are being saved (2 Corinthians 2:15) and shall be saved (Romans 5:9). God has given us salvation, and he expects us to respond to him with faith. John wrote of salvation and eternal life as a present reality and possession (1 John 5:11-12) and a future blessing.
Metaphors such as salvation and family of God—just as much as kingdom—are legitimate although partial descriptions of God’s plan for us. Christ’s gospel can be called the gospel of the kingdom, gospel of salvation, gospel of grace, gospel of God, gospel of eternal life, etc. The gospel is an announcement that we can live with God forever, and it includes information about this is possible—through Jesus Christ our Savior.
When Jesus talked about the kingdom, he didn’t emphasize its physical blessings or clarify its chronology. He focused instead on what people should do to be part of it. Tax collectors and prostitutes enter the kingdom of God, Jesus said (Matthew 21:31), and they do it by believing the gospel (verse 32) and by doing what the Father wants (verses 28-31). We enter the kingdom functionally when we respond to God with faith and allegiance.
In Mark 10, a man wanted to inherit eternal life, and Jesus said he should keep the commandments (Mark 10:17-19). Jesus added another command: He told him to give up all his possessions for the heavenly treasure (verse 21). Jesus commented to the disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!" (verse 23). The disciples asked, "Who then can be saved?" (verse 26). In this passage, and in its parallel in Luke 18:18-30, we see several phrases used to indicate the same thing: receive the kingdom, inherit eternal life, have treasure in heaven, enter the kingdom, be saved. When Jesus said, "follow me" (verse 21), he was using another phrase to indicate the same thing: We enter the kingdom by orienting our life to Jesus.
In Luke 12:31-34, Jesus indicates that several phrases are similar: seeking the kingdom, being given the kingdom, having a heavenly treasure, giving up trust in physical possessions. We seek God’s kingdom by responding to what Jesus taught. In Luke 21:28, 30, the kingdom is parallel to redemption. In Acts 20:21, 24-25, 32, we learn that Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom, and he preached the gospel of God’s grace, repentance and faith. The kingdom is closely connected with salvation—the kingdom would not be worth preaching if we couldn’t be part of it, and we can enter it only through faith, repentance and grace, so those are part of any message about God’s kingdom. Salvation is a present-tense reality as well as a promise of future blessings.
In Corinth, Paul preached nothing but Christ and his crucifixion (1 Corinthians 2:2). In Acts 28:23, 29, 31, Luke tells us that Paul in Rome preached both the kingdom and about Jesus and salvation. These are different aspects of the same Christian message.
The kingdom is relevant not merely because it is our future reward, but also because it affects how we live and think in this age. We prepare for the future kingdom by living in it now, in accordance with our King’s teachings. As we live in faith, we recognize God’s rule as a present reality in our own experience, and we continue to hope in faith for a future time when the kingdom will be filled to the full, when the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord.
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