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Post by Michael on May 6, 2008 5:14:36 GMT -5
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Post by Michael on May 9, 2008 4:55:37 GMT -5
For your information what is happening in Dudley is an offshoot of what is happening in Lakeland. My Observations of the Outpouring in Lakeland, Floridaby Steve Strang May 7, 2008 A great revival took place in Wales in 1904. Sadly there is little to show today for the effects of that revival. Two years later the Pentecost revival started at Azusa Street in Los Angeles. The black church where it started actually closed around 1930. But the revival it generated continues to include more than 400 million people around the world today. The difference between the two revivals is that the Pentecost revival has actually been a "series of revivals" that has happened again and again over the years-- the Latter Rain movement and the healing revivals of the late 40's; Full Gospel business men that started in the 50's, along with ministries emerging such as Kathryn Kuhlman; followed by the Charismatic movement of the 60's in the mainline Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic church. Then there has been the Faith movement, the Apostolic movement, and various revival outbreakings in places like Toronto and Brownsville. The latest outbreak of revival is apparently in Lakeland, Florida. It started with meetings with Todd Bentley on April 2 at Ignited Church pastored by my long-time friend Steve Strader. I've know Steve since I was in the 9th grade and he was in the 6th grade when his father Karl Strader came to pastor the church my family attended in Lakeland. That was also the church where Rodney Howard Browne's ministry really took off in the United States with extended meetings back in the early 90's. (This revival with Todd Bentley started about the time that we had a death in the family so I was not able to go down to the services until Monday, May 5-- the 34th continuous day of the revival. By the time I attended, Lee Grady and others had been to the revival and had given their analysis. ... Before I attended on Monday I was also beginning to get critical emails about the revival, expressing cautions, etc. As I've covered the move of the Holy Spirit for the last three decades, I know that anytime there is a genuine move of God, it is guaranteed that certain people will automatically oppose it. These people oppose any move of God that is beyond their own religious experience. The sad thing is that some times they will have some valid criticisms that people like me tend to discount because they are so negative. Some people also question Todd Bentley's past. He has quite a "testimony" that actually was first reported in Charisma several years ago. But there are those who feel that a person who is less than perfect can't really be used by God. Actually I believe that the Bible teaches that "God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise" (1 Corinthians 1:27, NIV). ... When I attended the meeting I was excited to see the level of enthusiasm among those who attended. People waited in lines for hours to get a seat at the civic center in Lakeland, a venue that seats about 7,000. There seemed to be about 6,000 there that night and I was told that at the baseball stadium over the previous weekend there were 12,000. The meetings are broadcasted live on the Internet on the Ignited Church's website www.ignitedchurch.com and also on GodTV which is also broadcasting the services daily from 7 to 11 p.m. EST. There was great praise and worship that night for about an hour and 15 minutes. Then there were testimonies, Todd Bentley shared and there was ministry of various types that took place. There was a lot of humility exhibited in the service that I attended. There were also words of knowledge including that there would be an outbreak of revival in Holland, Germany and Ireland. Todd Bentley called for delegations from those countries that had flown over for the revival to come forward. There were about a dozen from each country and they seemed to be mightily touched by God when Todd prayed for them. Toward the end of the service there were two lines of people who wanted to give testimonies who were called up to the stage using the format that has become familiar with Benny Hinn, where he has the helpers call out the miracles on one side and then on the other. Bentley interviewed the people one by one and then there was a ministry time where they generally fall over under the power of God. Todd Bentley is from Canada. Most of the people in his ministry team have come down from Canada. Many of them are from the biker culture. While I had never met Todd Bentley nor heard him minister, I was a little surprised to see that he was covered with tattoos-- which is much more acceptable in his generation than in mine. Nevertheless he ministered with power. When I was asked later on to describe the service I heard myself saying rather extemporaneously that the first part of the service with worship reminded me of the worship at the Brownsville revival and Todd's style of ministry reminded me of a "Benny Hinn with tattoos." A couple people I've said that to have found it rather funny and have also found it a helpful word picture. It's too early to really tell the long-term effect of this revival. My report today is neither criticism nor an affirmation. I have not had an opportunity to research any of the miracles or even to talk personally with Todd Bentley. Much of what I know has come from Steve Strader (whom I have known a long time and who I trust). However, the people I saw at the meetings seemed genuinely hungry for a move of God. Like many, I'm also hungry for a move of God and I'm glad to see this outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I'm glad to see the excitement that has been generated-- not only in Lakeland but in various parts of the country. I'm encouraged by the miracles that have been reported even from those who watch on the Internet or on GodTV. I actually know a few of the people who are reporting healings. Again, I've not been able to research them and I may even report on that later. Today I just wanted to get out a quick report on what I saw and say that I was encouraged rather than discouraged. I encourage you to check it out for yourself on GodTV or on the Internet and analyze it for yourself but if you can come to Lakeland that's even better. ...
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Post by Michael on May 9, 2008 5:22:02 GMT -5
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Post by Michael on May 13, 2008 7:25:38 GMT -5
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Post by Michael on May 15, 2008 3:28:10 GMT -5
Honest Questions About the Lakeland Revival
by J. Lee Grady I support any holy outbreak of revival fervor. But let’s be careful to guard ourselves from pride and error. God is stirring deep spiritual passion in the hearts of the thousands of people who have traveled to Florida during the last month to experience the Lakeland Healing Revival. Since these meetings began in a 700-seat church on April 2, the crowd has moved four times to bigger venues, the fervor has intensified and the news has spread worldwide—thanks to God TV and online broadcasting. Within a few weeks, the bandwagon effect was in full swing. It’s safe to say that no outbreak of Pentecostalism in history has gained so much international exposure so quickly as these meetings have. I’m a cheerleader for the charismatic movement, so I rejoiced when I heard the news about revivalist Todd Bentley’s extended visit to Ignited Church. It was thrilling to hear the reports of miracles and to watch the crowd grow until a stadium was required to hold everyone. “When we put bizarre behavior on the platform we imply that it is normative. Thus more strange fire is allowed to spread.” When I visited a service on April 15, I was blessed by Heather Clark’s music and the audience’s exuberant worship. And I laughed with everyone else as I watched Bentley shout his trademarked “Bam! Bam! Bam!” as he prayed for the sick and flailed his tattooed arms over the crowd. Hey, Jesus didn’t pray for people according tothe Pharisees’ rulebook, so I’m open to unconventional methods. But I would be dishonest if I told you that I wholeheartedly embraced what I saw in Lakeland. Something disturbed me, but I kept my mouth shut for three weeks while I prayed, got counsel from respected ministry leaders and searched my heart to make sure I was not harboring a religious spirit. The last thing we need today is more mean-spirited heresy hunters blasting other Christians. I am not a heresy hunter, and I support what is happening in Lakeland because I know God uses imperfect people (like me and you) to reach others for Jesus. At the same time, I believe my questions are honest and my concerns are real. My motive is not to criticize Bentley or the pastor who is sponsoring these meetings, Stephen Strader. In September 2002 Charisma featured a seven-page article about Bentley’s amazing conversion from drug addiction. I believe Bentley is a sincere brother who wants people to encounter God’s presence and power. No doubt this 32-year-old evangelist needs our prayers now more than ever, especially since he has become the focus of international media attention. But as the noise from Lakeland grows louder and its influence spreads, I’m issuing some words of warning that apply to all of us, not just the folks in Lakeland. I hope everyone understands that these cautions are offered in love: 1. Beware of strange fire.The name of Jesus is being lifted up in the Lakeland revival, and three people came to the altar for salvation the night I attended. Larger numbers have come to the front of the auditorium to find Christ every night since then. Yet I fear another message is also being preached subtly in Lakeland—a message that cult-watchers would describe as a spiritual counterfeit. Bentley is one of several charismatic ministers who have emphasized angels in the last several years. He has taught about angels who bring financial breakthroughs or revelations, and he sometimes refers to an angel named Emma who supposedly played a role in initiating a prophetic movement in Kansas City in the 1980s. Bentley describes Emma as a woman in a flowing white dress who floats a few feet off the floor. All of us who believe the Bible know that angels are real, and that they work on our behalf to protect us and minister to us. But the apostle Paul, who had encounters with angels himself, issued stern warnings to the Corinthians, the Galatians and the Colossians about angels who preach another gospel or that demand attention. In Colossae, believers were so enamored with angels they had seen in visions that they became “inflated without cause” by spiritual pride (Col. 2:18, NASB). Paul was adamant that preoccupation with angels can lead to serious deception. We need to tread carefully here! We have no business teaching God’s people to commune with angels or to seek revelations from them. And if any revival movement—no matter how exciting or passionate—mixes the gospel of Jesus with this strange fire, the results could be devastating. We need to remember that Mormonism was born out of one man’s encounter with a dark angel who claimed to speak for God. 2. Beware of bizarre manifestations.When the Holy Spirit’s power comes on people they may feel weak or even fall. The Spirit’s power can also cause people to tremble, shake, laugh or cry. Such manifestations are biblical and we should leave room for them. But where do we draw the line between legitimate experience and fanatical excess? The apostle Paul had to deal with outrageous charismatic manifestations in the Corinthian church. People were acting like raving lunatics—and turning the church in to a free-for-all of unbridled ecstatic behavior. Paul called for discipline and order, and he reminded early Christians that “the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets” (1 Cor. 14:32). In other words, Paul was saying that no one under the influence of the Holy Spirit should act out of control. In many recent charismatic revivals, ministers have allowed people to behave like epileptics on stage—and they have attributed their attention-getting antics to the Holy Spirit. We may think it’s all in fun (you know, we’re just “acting crazy” for God) but we should be more concerned that such behavior feeds carnality and grieves the Spirit. When exotic manifestations are encouraged, people can actually get a religious high from jerking, vibrating, screaming or acting intoxicated. (I have even been around people who writhed as if in pain, or made sexual noises—thinking this was a legitimate spiritual experience.) But emotional euphoria doesn’t guarantee a heart change. The person who is bucking like an untamed bronco in a church service would benefit more from sitting still and reading the Bible for an hour. When we put bizarre behavior on the platform we imply that it is normative. Thus more strange fire is allowed to spread. 3. Beware of hype and exaggeration.Our hearts are crying out today for a genuine move of God. We want the real deal. We’ve read about the Great Awakenings of the past and we long to see our nation overcome by a wave of repentance. The church is in a backslidden state, and our nation has rebelled against God. We are desperate! In our longing for a holy visitation, however, we must be careful not to call the first faint breeze of the Spirit a full-fledged revival. If we do that, we are setting people up for disappointment when they realize it may not be what we blew it up to be. Some of the language used during the Lakeland Revival has created an almost sideshow atmosphere. People are invited to “Come and get some.” Miracles are supposedly “popping like popcorn.” Organizers tout it as the greatest revival in history. Such brash statements cheapen what the Holy Spirit is doing—and they do a disservice to our brothers and sisters who are experiencing New Testament-style revival in countries such as Iran, China and India. We have a long way to go before we experience their level of revival. Let’s stay humble and broken before the Lord. I am rejoicing over all the reported healings at the Lakeland meetings. Miracles are awesome. Crowds are great. But miracles and crowds alone don’t guarantee a revival. Multitudes followed Jesus during His ministry on earth, but many of the people who saw the dead raised or ate food that was supernaturally multiplied later crucified the Son of God. It was the few disciples who followed Jesus after Calvary who ushered in a true revival—one that was bathed in the fear of God, confirmed by signs and wonders, tempered by persecution and evidenced by thousands of conversions, new churches and the transformation of society. We should expect nothing less.
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Post by Michael on May 15, 2008 4:23:10 GMT -5
In the Bible there are only two good angels mentioned , I believe , by name:- Michael and Gabriel. There are other words used for angels, for example Palmoni ( Heb. ) which means the numberer of secrets or the wonderful numberer in Daniel 8:13. Also in Daniel 4: 13f the word " watcher" and "holy one " is mentioned in reference to angel(s). In many cases the angel's name is a secret
Jdg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it [is] secret? The patriarch Jacob had no more success with the Angel who wrestled with him regarding finding out His name( Genesis 32 ). |
It begs the question about the Emma mentioned by Bentley. At Dudley on DAY 5 of their BLOG we read:- Before the meeting, at 1pm on Thursday afternoon, Trevor had an encounter with the 'Angel of Release', when I spoke to him, he told me what happened:
"In the visitation I was aware that there was a presence in the room, as I turned around there was a golden figure of light. He introduced himself saying, "I'm the angel release; I have come to set people free. I will be there tonight ministering to people by pouring the molten gold upon them that will dissolve their chains!" web.mac.com/revivalfires/Site/Blog/Entries/2008/5/2_Day_Five%3A_Breaking_Addictions.html
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In The DUDLEY BLOG there are other references to angels,eg Day 6 The worship made way for the glory of the Lord. As people celebrated, danced, sang and jumped Sharon began to sing about favour. She said that this mean that the Angel Gabriel was present, as He brings favour! |
Be A Berean! Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. |
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Post by andrewchapman on May 16, 2008 18:15:40 GMT -5
I don't believe that this Emma is an angel of God. I don't think Angel of Release is a name exactly, it sounds like he was explaining what he was there to do. There are angels over the seven churches of Revelation 2-3 - we don't know their names but we could perhaps speak about the Angel of Laodicea without going astray. I believe we have to ask the Lord for specific discernment in each case. I have been once to the Dudley meetings and was greatly blessed. The worship was wonderful and the presence of the Lord was manifest. There seemed to be a genuine work of healing going on and the prophetic word that Trevor brought from Zechariah 4 about the two olive trees made sense to me. He said that these were representing prophecy and healing (I understood this as a rhema now word not doctrine) and praying afterwards about it I felt the Lord show me that these are two witnesses or signs of His presence. So I was OK with that. Likewise I believe that the Lord was imparting genuine prophetic and healing anointings through the laying on of hands.
On the other hand, I believe there is a major demonic intrusion into the ministry and little prayer to counter it. There's a certain amount of hype and some silliness. The good thing is that they are meeting every day which shows commitment to the Lord's work and faith and expectation for revival in this nation. Love covers a multitude of sins and they do show this love for the Lord very much.
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Post by Michael on May 17, 2008 6:23:21 GMT -5
Hi AndrewC,
Many thanks for your input on the "Dudley OutPouring". If you have any other comments on this thread or anything else please do not hesitate to post them.
God bless, Michael
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Post by Michael on May 19, 2008 4:37:20 GMT -5
Latest video "Dudley OutPouring" - A Shaking Going On! (May 18, 2008) at youtube.com/watch?v=dUl2-Bo0Q2MAt the start of this video clip Trevor Baker is talking about Todd Bentley. Praying for international visitors from Turkey, Macedonia, USA, South Africa, etc.
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Post by Michael on May 20, 2008 4:33:52 GMT -5
Regarding the shaking, see AndrewC comments 5 posts down at pafn777.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=other&action=display&thread=708Also the following verses may be pertinent Jeremiah 23:9 Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness. 2 Chronicles 5 :14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.
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Post by andrewchapman on May 20, 2008 9:31:02 GMT -5
After my post on the other thread, in which I was open-minded about what the shaking was (while being positive overall about the meetings) I remembered to ask the Lord directly if the shaking was from Him, and if so what it meant, and was there something from scripture to support it. What came to me straight away was Hebrews 12 v 26-27:
whose voice then shook the earth, but now He has promised, saying "Yet once more I shake (or will shake) not only the earth, but also heaven." Now this "Yet once more" indicates the removal of those things being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
And I believe I heard the Lord say 'there's a shaking coming'.
So now I have come round to the view that this is actually a prophetic sign from God of a coming shaking, and indeed there has been an earthquake in recent days, and a tremor recently in the financial system, and the real possibility of a shaking in the Middle East if the irresistible force of Iran's nuclear program collides with the immoveable object of Israel's refusal to lie down and be subject to genocide a second time.
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Post by Michael on May 20, 2008 11:30:22 GMT -5
Thanks AndrewC!
I went to a Holy Ghost meeting in the 1980s and there was more preaching and teaching at the meetings.
I would be a lot happier with the "Dudley Outpouring" if there was more teaching/preaching. The signs FOLLOW the WORD according to
Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
I know you can't tell The LORD what to do but when I come from these meetings I feel I have to listen to teaching messages as a safeguard and as a supplement. Thanks again for your welcomed input.
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Post by andrewchapman on May 21, 2008 8:30:44 GMT -5
Hi Michael,
What is your opinion about the meetings - you have been a Christian longer than I have and I am sure have valuable insights.
Personally I believe that we must follow the instructions and commandments given in the New Testament for the church and so am miles away from the Dudley ministry in what I believe we should be aiming at.
In general I believe that where Jesus Christ is honoured and worshipped and glorified and proclaimed as Lord and Saviour and as God, then the dominant spirit will be the Holy Spirit. I think there is a huge amount of grace given out freely by God to make up for our imperfections. I don't believe this is anything like the revival prophesied by Smith Wigglesworth, because I believe that that will be accompanied by repentance from our unwillingness to do what we have been told to in the holy scriptures. But I do think it is being blessed by God and there is life there, which is more than can be said for most churches nowadays in my judgement.
For the reason I said in the other thread aboujt the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, I am extremely concerned about people saying that the Toronto movement and similar movements are from the evil one. I think that several ministries missed the boat when they were too critical of Toronto. David Wilkerson perhaps erred in this way and there have been others too.
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Post by Michael on May 22, 2008 4:22:44 GMT -5
My comment with respect to The Toronto Blessing is " No Comment. " Believe I received that word in in the mid 1990's.
Received the following article today from Lee Grady!
Whatever Happened to the Fear of God?
by Lee Grady
If we want the same level of supernatural anointing that was evident in the New Testament church, we should also pray for a higher level of holiness. We charismatics yearn for a return to the raw intensity of the early church—the angelic visitations, power encounters, prophecies, mass conversions and missionary adventures. I want all of that! The book of Acts is the gold standard for normative Christianity, and we shouldn’t rest until we see it manifested in our generation. But those first-century miracles didn’t happen in a vacuum. They flowed from a praying church that was bathed in humility and holiness. The early disciples had not only been baptized in the Holy Spirit; they had also been baptized with fire (see Matt. 3:11). And the fire of God is a cleansing flame that burns up sin and produces the fear of the Lord. We tend to forget that the same people who experienced tongues on the day of Pentecost, and then witnessed the healing of a lame beggar in Jerusalem, also watched in horror as Ananias and Sapphira—two influential but compromising church members—dropped dead because God’s presence was so strong. When their bodies were carried away, the Bible says, “great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things” (Acts 5:11, NASB). “We love the ecstatic joy and the goose bumps that accompany revival meetings. But revival is not fun and games. Are we ready for the terror?” Do we want that level of God’s presence? The fear that came on the early church is also called a “sense of awe” in Acts 2:43. We often downplay the fear of God by saying that it really means “reverence.” But the Greek word used in Acts 5:11 and Acts 2:43 is phobos, which can be translated “exceeding dread, alarm or terror.” We love the ecstatic joy and the goose bumps that accompany revival meetings. But revival is not fun and games. Are we ready for the terror? As I pray for revival in my own life and in my nation, I have started praying regularly for the fear of the Lord. And I think it will manifest in some key areas: 1. Truthfulness. When we walk in close fellowship with the Holy Spirit we will feel an immediate sense of conviction if we say anything false or misleading. That conviction will hound us until we repent and repair the damage we have done with our mouths. We will hear the word of the Lord echoing in our conscience: “Do not lie to one another” (Col. 3:9). I realized a few years ago that I sometimes lied when someone asked me if I had read a certain book or knew of a certain celebrity or sports figure. Even if I did not know anything about the subject of the conversation, I would nod and pretend that I was informed. I recognized later that I did this out of insecurity, hoping to appear knowledgeable. I had to repent of pride and ask God to help me be honest. This may seem minor, but little white lies breed serious deceit. If we have no fear of God, we will exaggerate and think nothing of it. This can become a crisis when church leaders, in their zeal for revival, are careless when reporting miracles, healings or numbers of conversions. Exaggeration is lying. If we build a ministry by stretching the truth, we stand on shaky ground. Christ’s kingdom cannot be built on hype. We often assume that the sin of Ananias and Sapphira was greed. But the Bible actually says they were struck dead because they lied to the Holy Spirit (see Acts 5:3). They sold a piece of property and pretended to give all the money to the apostles when in fact they had kept some of the proceeds for themselves. They were trying to look good in the eyes of church leaders. They were attempting to buy favor and influence—and God caught them in the act. 2. Sexual purity. All of us know that the American church is facing a sexual crisis. Some denominations, such as the Episcopal Church, have bowed to the spirit of Baal to embrace homosexual practice as acceptable behavior. Recently, Episcopal bishop Gene Robinson announced that gay marriage is a new truth revealed by the Holy Spirit. Thankfully the charismatic world hasn’t slipped to that level of depravity. But we have never witnessed so much moral failure in our ranks. Many ministers are living double lives and hiding their girlfriends and out-of-wedlock babies. In my city, one prominent minister had an affair with a stripper and went right on preaching from the same pulpit without skipping a beat. If I am walking in the fear of God, I will not peek at pornography, entertain fantasy or cross a sexual boundary. And if I am in church leadership, I will never allow ministers with questionable sexual reputations to defile the congregation by allowing him to lay hands on them or impart his defilement. I don’t care how “anointed” a man of God is or how accurate his prophecies are. If he has been engaging in immorality and has not been restored properly, he will infect people with his sin if we give him a platform. 3. Financial integrity. We should learn from the example of Eli’s reprobate sons, Hophni and Phinehas, that God does not wink at extortion—especially when it involves money that has been given to God. These “worthless” men were judged severely because they had their hands in the offering plate (see 1 Sam. 2:12-17). The eighth commandment forbids stealing. Yet in the “Spirit-filled” church today, ministers think nothing of robbing the saints. Too often the collection of the offering turns into a circus involving manipulation, theatrics and the twisting of Scripture—as well as arms—to meet a budget goal. Why should we be surprised when God’s presence lifts at that point in the service? If we truly fear the Lord we will be conscious of the fact that He watches how we handle money in His house. He sees every dollar that is given. Heaven keeps accurate accounting. God knows how we word our financial appeals and if we use the money for one thing when it was pledged for another. 4. Reverence for God. In some charismatic churches today, leaders have introduced a trendy new teaching that compares God to drugs. They proclaim that “Jesus is my D.O.C.”—my “Drug of Choice.” In a bizarre attempt to be relevant with our culture, they compare a spiritual encounter with God to a heroin overdose. In one instance, a group of people pretended to shoot invisible needles into their arms as they prayed for one another and asked God for His anointing. And this was in a so-called “revival service”! One minister in Oregon refers to God as “Jehovahjuana”—implying that the Lord can give you a marijuana high. Another conference speaker in California put a plastic Jesus from a nativity scene into his mouth and encouraged a group of teens to “smoke baby Jesus.” The kids all laughed and everyone thought this was a hoot. Actually, mishandling the name of the Lord in such a flippant manner, and comparing God to an illegal drug, is what the Bible calls blasphemy. We do not have permission to dishonor His character by changing His name to something sinful and degrading. How desperately we need the dreadful fire of His holy presence! I hope we will all cry out together the prayer of David in Psalm 86:11: “Teach me Your way, O Lord; I will walk in Your truth; unite my heart to fear Your name.”
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Post by Michael on May 22, 2008 5:39:16 GMT -5
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